Episode 9

Conversation with Mitch Downey of Podverse

Published on: 23rd January, 2023

I have a conversation with Mitch Downey of Podverse.

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Show notes with links to articles, blog posts, products and services:

Episode 9 (58 minutes) was live recorded at 2000 Central European Time, on January 13, 2023, with Boomcaster. Martin did the post-production with the podcast maker, Alitu. The transcript is generated by Alitu. Notes to self written on Mod 1927 notecards. Bumper and jingle by Jim Jonsson, JTunes Productions

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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
Martin:

Welcome to Tea party.

Martin:

Media podcast.

Martin:

I am Marty Lindiscope.

Martin:

Hi, Mitch.

Mitch:

Hi, Martin.

Martin:

How are you doing?

Mitch:

I'm doing well.

Mitch:

It's Friday.

Martin:

Yeah. What are you thinking about?

Mitch:

Well, podcasting and all the work I'm going to do this weekend because I'm an open

Mitch:

source developer, so I do a lot of work on weekends, but it's fun for me.

Martin:

Yeah, that's great.

Martin:

And now we are being live here also.

Martin:

So I will at the same time here check if it's hooked up on my Facebook and on YouTube we'll

Martin:

see if it's working on LinkedIn also.

Martin:

Yeah, look, cool.

Mitch:

Brilliant.

Martin:

So two and we will see here, but when it's hard with multitasking.

Martin:

So I will concentrate on you as a guest.

Martin:

And here it's on Facebook and we will see if

Martin:

it will come to YouTube.

Martin:

It's all about these settings and the

Martin:

parameters.

Martin:

There I am.

Martin:

Okay.

Martin:

Live.

Martin:

Yeah.

Mitch:

Time work.

Martin:

There were so called stereo or roundabout.

Mitch:

It's cool you do that demo because hopefully podverse will be in that rotation

Mitch:

someday with live streams.

Martin:

Yeah. And we could start with that.

Martin:

We recommend stopping the recording before

Martin:

hanging up the call.

Martin:

So that's one note to you, because this is

Martin:

streaming and recording at the same time.

Martin:

But depending on and I will check that we are

Martin:

using a service called Boom Coster.

Martin:

I check now on Mitch, you have yeah, good

Martin:

saying here on percent 80% upload.

Martin:

And I have that also.

Martin:

So it's when saying it's a good level.

Mitch:

Okay.

Martin:

Because all this technical thing, you don't really want to mess with it, but you

Martin:

wanted to see and when you see this bar also going on as an independent developer and

Martin:

program, why did you start an app? And of course you have to give a plug what app

Martin:

is calling.

Martin:

And to joke.

Martin:

Now, I'm doing a shout out to Adam Curry and Dave Jones.

Martin:

We are competing with you now live because I know that you have a board meeting of

Martin:

Podcasting 2.0 podcast.

Martin:

So there you have something in your app that

Martin:

you could do.

Mitch:

Usually I'd be listening to them right now, but instead I'm talking to you.

Martin:

But you picked the time also.

Martin:

And I did that also.

Martin:

It's the time difference.

Mitch:

Yeah, this time happens to work best for me.

Mitch:

And yeah, what is a seven hour time difference or something like that?

Mitch:

podverse is a free and open source podcasting app for iOS, Android, Fjord and Web.

Mitch:

We try to add as many features as we possibly can and make it work across devices so you can

Mitch:

have a synchronized experience.

Mitch:

So basically one app that can work across all

Mitch:

of your devices.

Mitch:

And I got into it, boy, a long time ago when I

Mitch:

started to learn how to code.

Mitch:

It was like my main project.

Mitch:

I loved podcasts.

Mitch:

I'd listen to them for a few years and I love

Mitch:

that it's independent media, it's accessible to everybody.

Mitch:

You can do it with very little money.

Mitch:

I mean, there's some investment, but relative

Mitch:

to the fact you can reach potentially anyone in the world with an Internet access, it's

Mitch:

amazing to me.

Mitch:

And so I listened to a lot of podcasts at the

Mitch:

time and had a hard time sharing it with other people.

Mitch:

So I'd listen to a few that I liked a lot and I'd want to share moments with people and

Mitch:

everyone else.

Mitch:

They're watching Netflix or HBO, they don't

Mitch:

know what I'm talking about, they're not familiar with it.

Mitch:

So the origin of podverse was just to make a clip sharing app, to make it easy to share

Mitch:

highlights.

Mitch:

And on top of that, I've always been very

Mitch:

passionate about open source software.

Mitch:

So that was just kind of a given that I wanted

Mitch:

to make it open source.

Mitch:

What started as a simple clip maker has now

Mitch:

turned into an app with a ton of features, trying to do everything we can.

Mitch:

And that's by design because I didn't want a separate app that I have to go into to make

Mitch:

clips.

Mitch:

I wanted one app that can do everything I need

Mitch:

and also share clips because otherwise it's just not natural for me to be switching

Mitch:

between multiple apps.

Mitch:

It's just a little extra overhead.

Mitch:

That's how it all started and that was like nine years ago and I didn't know how to code

Mitch:

at that time.

Mitch:

I've had to teach myself as I go.

Mitch:

And that's partly why it has taken so long, I think, to get it in a more mature state like

Mitch:

it is now, where it's, I think, a pretty high quality user experience.

Martin:

Yeah, I must say that it is.

Martin:

And I'm not the coder, I know HTML back in the

Martin:

day, but what kind of program language are you in order to do an app?

Mitch:

I do mostly JavaScript.

Mitch:

JavaScript is the language that all websites

Mitch:

use, basically.

Mitch:

It's what browsers, natively support.

Mitch:

And the interesting thing about JavaScript is that it's so widely adopted that you can write

Mitch:

any type of technology with it, potentially.

Mitch:

I'm not saying it's right for every

Mitch:

technology, but you can do websites, you can do mobile apps, you can do data APIs.

Mitch:

So in the Pod verse, it's all full stack JavaScript.

Mitch:

We have five different major code services and all five of them are like 99% JavaScript.

Martin:

And, and funny about that, that's my so called humor.

Martin:

Java is, you know, a slang for a cup of Java.

Martin:

And it's coming from Indonesia, that's very

Martin:

famous for the coffee plantations, but also tea.

Martin:

So in the history they had some hard time with harvest, so they changed from tea to coffee

Martin:

and vice versa.

Martin:

I will drink with my tea.

Mitch:

Well, you would be the expert on tea.

Martin:

Yeah, coffee too, maybe.

Martin:

Yeah.

Martin:

I'm a tour and I've written a book about black tea, my first in the series, and also the name

Martin:

there, tea Party media enthusiasts.

Martin:

So we could take that as some quick questions

Martin:

then.

Martin:

What's your relation to tea?

Mitch:

Well, I love hot beverages like coffee and tea.

Mitch:

I have coffee on the table right now.

Mitch:

Tea is more of an evening drink for me with

Mitch:

less caffeine involved.

Mitch:

Yeah, I love it.

Mitch:

I don't know if I'm a connoisseur.

Mitch:

I'll take pretty much whatever I have

Mitch:

available.

Martin:

Okay, and you are but you are based in if I may ask?

Martin:

There in in you could say in me, it's the central time.

Martin:

Right?

Mitch:

I'm in Chicago.

Martin:

Yeah. So in the Windy City, that's expression, it's both climate but it's also

Martin:

political things, windy City.

Martin:

But I visit in Chicago twice in the summer and

Martin:

it was beautiful.

Martin:

But I know called being tea suset.

Martin:

She is a tea samull year and also with meditations on she has tea courses or tea

Martin:

trainings and very good.

Martin:

I was starting to subscribe to her tea and I

Martin:

got a notification from the postal office with the customs, but I have to pay a certain

Martin:

amount in order to import and handling fee.

Martin:

But it's handpicked tea.

Martin:

So if you want to have really good tea, then you should check out Being Tea and Resources.

Martin:

But I know Chicago probably have some good stores and places you could buy like online,

Martin:

but also physical store, so but I know it's famous also for the coffee tradition and

Martin:

drinking beverage and it's good when you're coding.

Martin:

Right.

Martin:

You need to have that kick.

Martin:

Right?

Mitch:

It helps.

Mitch:

Definitely helps.

Mitch:

I mean, there's not pretty much any work it can help with as long as you don't overdo it

Mitch:

and get jittery.

Mitch:

But yeah, I try to keep the caffeine low

Mitch:

because I don't like being too dependent on it.

Mitch:

I like the taste so much.

Mitch:

It's like a habit for me to drink.

Mitch:

I don't necessarily need all the caffeine.

Martin:

And I like the caffeine or tea in tea and I don't get rid of it.

Martin:

So maybe it's a mental thing or a physical, but then I could suggest an alternative to

Martin:

coffee and tea called Yarba Yarba Mate.

Martin:

And it's very popular in South America and

Martin:

there you get the kick but not like energy drinks and so on getting the slump.

Martin:

Also dump and that is fellow podcast called Evo Terra and he's very much into fiction

Martin:

podcasting and so on and he drinks yarbamat very much.

Martin:

So that's something maybe to check out.

Martin:

So now when you have done these great launches

Martin:

and versions and with your as a co founder and programmers and your fellow team, how do you

Martin:

celebrate what's your party drink?

Mitch:

So that's part of my party drink.

Mitch:

Yeah, I'm more of a beer drinker, nothing too

Mitch:

exciting.

Martin:

Do you have microbrewers in Chicago?

Mitch:

There's just hundreds or if not thousands of them.

Mitch:

I like pale ales, typically I like a hoppy quality beer or IPAs.

Mitch:

There's very few I don't like.

Martin:

I think the darker beers that like the stout.

Mitch:

Yeah, I don't like the stout so much or the oatmeal.

Martin:

You get like beer and bread at the same time.

Martin:

It's almost like a meal.

Martin:

It's very thick.

Martin:

And then of course, the Belgium, they have all kind of even sweet beers and so on, like

Martin:

cherry and flavored and other things like that.

Martin:

But that's interesting.

Martin:

Maybe people are wondering where Martin going

Martin:

now? But the beer market in America with micro

Martin:

brewers is huge industry combined.

Martin:

Yeah, and here in Sweden you had lots of small

Martin:

brewers first, then the big players bought them up like halsburg.

Martin:

Probably the best beer in the world, so called is slogan.

Martin:

It's a safe bet, so to speak.

Martin:

And heineken and this kind of thing, maybe

Martin:

heineken is very slogan.

Martin:

But anyway, so then it was concentrated with a

Martin:

few players.

Martin:

But now it had been renaissance again for the

Martin:

microbrewers.

Martin:

But then you have all these regulations and

Martin:

how you sell it.

Martin:

And because here it's a monopoly.

Martin:

You can't go to like a drive thru liquor store.

Martin:

You have to go to a state owned store in order to buy beer and liquor in Sweden.

Martin:

But now we have lots of to pick and choose from.

Martin:

And I see that a little bit of podcasting also on apps.

Martin:

First it was many or not, you have to program it yourself.

Martin:

Then it became some big players and now I see lots of things for different use cases and so

Martin:

on.

Martin:

Sure.

Martin:

I really like seeing that coming in the future.

Martin:

So that's good to know, drinking beer when you're celebrating.

Martin:

And you should because the app is fantastic.

Martin:

Thank you.

Martin:

And we'll go through it a little bit here.

Martin:

Different features and what you could use with

Martin:

it and so on.

Martin:

But then we could take the thing directly

Martin:

because I know that you are for the freedom of expression and how to so called the little guy

Martin:

and this kind of approach.

Martin:

So what's your media when we have Tea Party

Martin:

Media, what's your favorite media outlet or social media platform?

Mitch:

Boy, I listened to so many different podcasts.

Mitch:

There isn't a particular outlet.

Mitch:

It's independent media that I typically like.

Mitch:

I like ad free or like minimal ads.

Mitch:

Let's see, I don't know because there isn't

Mitch:

like a specific network that I listen to.

Mitch:

As for social media these days.

Martin:

People.

Mitch:

Are polarized and have all kinds of different ideas about it.

Mitch:

But I like mastodon a lot.

Mitch:

I like that it's open source, it's

Mitch:

decentralized, it gives you an option to self host so you can start your own instance and

Mitch:

moderate it, manage it however you want, invite people to it however you want.

Mitch:

I tend to like things that are outside of the big tech dominance where you have the ability

Mitch:

to do everything you want yourself independently.

Mitch:

Other than that, I try to stay off of social media.

Mitch:

I'm on Twitter.

Mitch:

Twitter is kind of a bad habit for me.

Mitch:

I'm on it less and less but still scroll through it.

Mitch:

But most of the other social media sites these days I don't really use.

Mitch:

Probably there's opportunities there that I'm missing in terms of marketing for our

Mitch:

business.

Mitch:

It's hard for me to figure out marketing.

Mitch:

I'm so wrapped up in programming I don't know where to begin sometimes with.

Martin:

Marketing and we will talk about them.

Martin:

Then you could get like merchandise like Booze.

Martin:

Yeah, that's from Fountain.

Martin:

You could call them a competitor but also like

Martin:

friendly competition.

Mitch:

Fountain, sure, Fountain is supporting Podcasting 2.0 features.

Mitch:

So Podcasting 2.0 being adding new features to podcasting and that is done by adding new

Mitch:

information to RSS feeds because every podcast has an RSS feed.

Mitch:

That is how you share your podcast with the world as you put your information in an RSS

Mitch:

feed.

Mitch:

And then every app has access to it

Mitch:

potentially if they want access to it.

Mitch:

So yeah, Fountain does value for value

Mitch:

specifically.

Mitch:

Probably some other 2.0 features too, but most

Mitch:

well known for their Bitcoin Lightning value for value feature which we also offer in Pod

Mitch:

verse.

Martin:

So that's what I'm seeing when I'm start playing around with new apps.

Martin:

You could have an app for everything and as a new media advisor, I also say that you have to

Martin:

go and find your own hub or create your own hub and then you could have satellites with

Martin:

social media.

Martin:

But I also see what we're doing with the

Martin:

algorithms.

Martin:

I hear you about that and we talked in the

Martin:

green room about Masturban and the Fedwe.

Martin:

I like the idea, but it could take some time

Martin:

before you're getting used to it.

Martin:

Like the UX for example, you wonder why is it

Martin:

looking like this? Right?

Martin:

It's similar to when I went to Discord the first time.

Martin:

I didn't get that either.

Martin:

But now I get a feel for it and like it and

Martin:

especially with podcast index social and I mentioned that for using this boom cost and I

Martin:

mentioned that for Harry to ask for an invite or send an email because he really, I think

Martin:

could fit to understand what's going on.

Martin:

So he was very interested when he heard about

Martin:

the lit and Live, because now we are live, so how could you combine it?

Martin:

But then of course, is it any market for it? How much will it take to program with

Martin:

somebody, use it, pay for it, how could you get supported?

Martin:

And now I'm going back and forth, but on Fountain I'm paying a premium in order to use

Martin:

the service.

Martin:

And then if you do a boost to Gram, like

Martin:

sending a I call it a digital telegram with a note and then you could send a note of

Martin:

appreciation or token of appreciation with a small amount in so called fiat currency.

Martin:

But you can then play around with symbolic numbers like 1776, like the founding of

Martin:

America and that's like not even a dollar.

Martin:

It's interesting.

Martin:

But then you want to support the developer and the system that will continue.

Martin:

So, could you tell a little bit about that? Because I saw when I done boost or streaming

Martin:

at Podvers, it's saying like a default of is it $0.50 or something like that?

Mitch:

Yeah, we have a default.

Mitch:

We said it used to be ten and we bumped it

Mitch:

higher recently because.

Martin:

50 is not much at all, because that's one time, right?

Mitch:

Correct. Yeah. So the value for value features we have is you can send bitcoin to

Mitch:

the show while you're listening, as you already explained, the two formats with one is

Mitch:

to stream every minute.

Mitch:

It'll send money on every minute of playing

Mitch:

time.

Mitch:

And 50 stats is about one penny right now, US

Mitch:

dollars.

Mitch:

And then there's also boost to Gram, which is

Mitch:

a way to send a donation on demand with a message attached to it.

Mitch:

And yeah, we've had it for about six months.

Mitch:

In Pod verse, we integrate with a service

Mitch:

called Albi, and Albi makes it easy to you can kind of think of it as a payment processor.

Mitch:

I shouldn't even say PayPal, but it's similar to a PayPal like service for.

Martin:

People listen to this podcast, we know that we will get heated, maybe from Adam

Martin:

and Dave and others.

Martin:

I'm joking now, but you have to explain it

Martin:

somehow.

Martin:

Sure, that's the thing, because 510 years from

Martin:

now, people will say, did you do a boost or did you send a digital telegram?

Martin:

You streaming satouchi's.

Martin:

Right.

Martin:

Yeah, but now it's like, what are you talking about?

Mitch:

Yeah, it's still very new to everybody.

Mitch:

So LB makes it easy to sign up with an email

Mitch:

address.

Mitch:

They give you a wallet.

Mitch:

There's more advanced features, like you could connect your own Bitcoin node to it, but for

Mitch:

just beginners, you could sign up with it.

Mitch:

They give you a wallet.

Mitch:

And then in Pod verse, you go to the Value for Value screen in the mobile app or the website.

Mitch:

We have Value for Value on the website, too.

Mitch:

And you just log in your album account and

Mitch:

then you're connected to Albie and podverse and you can begin sending boosts and stream

Mitch:

stats that way.

Martin:

Yeah, that's neat.

Martin:

How to do it?

Martin:

And also then you have a cap.

Martin:

And now I'm going back and forth and probably

Martin:

ask you to come again and we could dig in more because when at first time it's fun to play

Martin:

around and then you see what impact you could do and how you could be a part of you could

Martin:

say, almost like they call it co producers or producers in different podcasts and adding

Martin:

your two cent or how many satouches you want to send.

Martin:

But then, of course, it's this technical thing.

Martin:

I mean, how to set this up, how many characters should you have in the note?

Martin:

How do you set the streaming sets, but it's safe and so on.

Martin:

So it's much things to think about, you take it for granted in a way, but it must be lots

Martin:

of thought and planning and testing and trial and error and so on.

Martin:

And that's why I like the friendly competition.

Martin:

I see how people really get inspired by it in a positive way by each other, but they have

Martin:

their own flavor and own style, right?

Mitch:

And it's interesting because we have a community of developers in Podcasting 2.0 and

Mitch:

companies and in traditional business sense we're competitors because we're all trying to

Mitch:

make a living doing this.

Mitch:

But podcasting being that it's based on an

Mitch:

open standard that everybody follows with RSS, there's benefit to all of us by working

Mitch:

together on common problems.

Mitch:

If the RSS host adds support for the lit tag,

Mitch:

that's good for podverse because we support live streams with the lit tag.

Mitch:

And like I saw just today, that podcast addict is apparently planning on supporting the live

Mitch:

tag.

Mitch:

Now they're technically a competitor, but

Mitch:

that's great news to see more adoption of apps of this live tag because that gives it a

Mitch:

better chance of survival.

Mitch:

That means the adoption will continue.

Mitch:

That's going to be good for us and hopefully good for the whole ecosystem.

Martin:

Yeah, we'll take that as a note that I said and here to do list.

Martin:

And then I wrote routine like Arrow and then routine and Chef because I told you one of the

Martin:

main advantages I think with podcasting is you could listen whenever you have time, for

Martin:

example, walking the cat or doing the dishes or shores and whatnot.

Martin:

But now I see my own behavior.

Martin:

Now as I joked that we are competing with Adam

Martin:

carrying Dave Jones on Podcasting 2.0 podcast because they are now on Pod verse it's saying

Martin:

lit and you get a notification and then you could be in their livestreaming when it's

Martin:

happening.

Martin:

Then they could of course when they upload it

Martin:

as a finished podcast episode and so on.

Martin:

But now you could then send a telegram and

Martin:

almost be on air.

Martin:

You could say, right, it could be like

Martin:

boosting yourself but also giving you adding your two cent.

Martin:

Also some inside jokes sometimes then you could have done that.

Martin:

If somebody's saying positive thing or constructive criticism, you could use it as a

Martin:

clip and say, look, I said this or this podcast said this about this issue, about my

Martin:

podcast or whatnot.

Martin:

So now with the live thing and they could read

Martin:

out the boost to grab and you feel that connection somehow.

Martin:

It's like almost like this.

Martin:

I'm not a big YouTube following live streaming

Martin:

like that, but I understand the super chats, I see what's going on.

Martin:

People are I could add my two cent to the conversation and be really into the live

Martin:

thing, right? Yeah.

Martin:

But here is directly it's no middleman, taking a cart and so on and it's getting very close

Martin:

to connection.

Martin:

So this I wonder if the behavior of podcast

Martin:

listeners will change over time when it's starting to get this fusion, but it will take

Martin:

lots of effort and things to come up with it.

Martin:

And then of course the use case if somebody

Martin:

will use it or not.

Martin:

So could you explain a little bit in layman

Martin:

person way what's the namespace and this list live item?

Martin:

I thought it was the live identity tag, but this live item tag right?

Martin:

And what's it doing both in the back end but also for an active user using like podverse?

Mitch:

Sure. So coming back to RSS feeds, they're what the whole podcast ecosystem is

Mitch:

based on.

Mitch:

It's simply a file that contains your show

Mitch:

information.

Mitch:

That's all it is.

Mitch:

You can just picture a text file in your head with all the show information and you put tags

Mitch:

around certain information.

Mitch:

So for the live item, that's a new tag.

Mitch:

It says Podcast Live item and then in there basically you include a link to your live

Mitch:

stream.

Mitch:

So it's that simple from a high level

Mitch:

technical explanation.

Mitch:

You just have a link in your RSS feed to your

Mitch:

live stream with some other info like what time does it start, what time does it end,

Mitch:

what is the title of the live stream? You put that information in your RSS feed and

Mitch:

then it becomes available to every podcast app that connects to RSS feeds.

Mitch:

And there's another service on top of that that's connected in this process.

Mitch:

It's called a pod ping.

Mitch:

And this is a service that has been created

Mitch:

out of Podcasting 2.0 in the Podcast index.

Mitch:

And it handles sending events to apps to allow

Mitch:

us to send notifications as soon as a live stream goes live with podcasting.

Mitch:

So other apps that are centralized like YouTube or Twitch, they handle this in their

Mitch:

own way, but they don't give other apps access to this information, not in the same way.

Mitch:

So YouTube pushes their notifications.

Mitch:

This never existed in a decentralized or

Mitch:

distributed way until Podcasting 2.0 with this podcast live item tag.

Mitch:

So yeah, that's about it then.

Mitch:

From a podcaster's perspective, the process

Mitch:

right now is mostly being done by people who aren't afraid of like you have some experience

Mitch:

with RSS feeds, aren't afraid of getting a little technical with how it works.

Mitch:

But where it's going is it's hopefully going to be as simple as you log into your whatever

Mitch:

your RSS host is and it just says Going live.

Mitch:

And you type in your live stream title and say

Mitch:

when you're going to start, press Start live stream, press Stop Livestream.

Mitch:

The service we're talking over right now, boomcaster.

Mitch:

Something like boomcaster.

Mitch:

Or there's a few alternatives.

Mitch:

What they do is they handle behind the scenes live streaming to multiple services at once.

Mitch:

So as you demonstrated the beginning, you went live on Facebook, on Twitter, I think on

Mitch:

LinkedIn, yeah, YouTube.

Mitch:

YouTube.

Mitch:

There's no reason why a service like this couldn't potentially go live with the lit tag

Mitch:

too.

Mitch:

And that would cover not just four different

Mitch:

apps, it would cover every app that wants to connect to that live stream.

Mitch:

So it's kind of like a one stop shop to be able to send it everywhere.

Mitch:

Now, I don't expect YouTube to use the Live tag, but maybe hundreds of other apps will.

Martin:

Great, that's great to hear because it's a non techy person.

Martin:

I played around with one app called Backpack Studio at Philhote and you could do Live

Martin:

Radio, but then you have to hook it up to some Ice Cost or some other things and I didn't

Martin:

know if I did it right or whatnot.

Martin:

But then again, it's the hosting that we will

Martin:

see and where I see the friendly competition again, like, Blueberry now announced that they

Martin:

have a long list of Podcasting 2.0 features.

Mitch:

Yeah, I'm very excited about that.

Martin:

So this is interesting to see because again, it will be that you're getting more and

Martin:

more connected to the service and value that and you maybe use it more often and so on,

Martin:

because that's what Harry was saying.

Martin:

Maybe you don't do Live every day or whatnot

Martin:

you have to find how I'm adding value.

Martin:

Maybe they don't want to joke, watch us to do

Martin:

it here, but if it will show things, different things, or maybe behind the face, behind the

Martin:

scenes and other things like that, or like bloopers or preshow, I don't know.

Martin:

Or you have a round table, you could do lots of things with it.

Martin:

But again, it is this technical barrier and this stumbling block, so to speak.

Martin:

But it's also fascinating.

Martin:

You could say a bit more about comment coming

Martin:

from the thing about before regular World Wide Web when we had interrelated chat.

Martin:

So you have that chat that's pretty addictive, I must say.

Martin:

I jumped on before we start recording to joke a little bit.

Martin:

When I saw an education, Podcasting 2.0 Live, I was talking with Mitch soon, so see you

Martin:

later.

Martin:

So there can you explain about what's that so

Martin:

you have a chat feature function in the app so you could talk with others that listen to a

Martin:

live streaming show.

Martin:

How does that work?

Mitch:

So this is another feature that any app can implement.

Mitch:

So we're one, I believe Carrier Caster is another one.

Mitch:

There's probably other examples at this point, but basically an IRC channel.

Mitch:

As you mentioned, it's one of the longest running chat services that people have used

Mitch:

for decades.

Mitch:

At this point, Podcasting 2.0 has an IRC chat

Mitch:

room and they give us a link in their RSS feed and then we just load that chat room in the

Mitch:

app.

Mitch:

So while you're listening to Podcasting 2.0

Mitch:

Live in the player, you can just swipe over to see the chat room and start typing within the

Mitch:

app.

Mitch:

So that combined with boostograms the ability

Mitch:

to send messages with donations, it allows a really interactive experience that is, I

Mitch:

think, a really exciting development in podcasting.

Mitch:

This never existed before.

Mitch:

As you mentioned podcasting, one of the main

Mitch:

benefits you think of is that you can listen at your convenience.

Mitch:

You don't have to tune in at a certain time, and that's true, and that will continue to be

Mitch:

true for podcasting.

Mitch:

But now you have this extra level where if you

Mitch:

are interested in a live experience, you can get it within the same show.

Mitch:

Like in the case of Podcasting 2.0, I get a notification when a new episode is a new

Mitch:

episode that was recorded is now available and I also get a notification when it's live in

Mitch:

progress.

Mitch:

So if I'm available at that time, I'll tune

Mitch:

in.

Mitch:

If they say something on the show I want to

Mitch:

comment on, I'll send a boost to Graham during the show and throw 10,000 SATS or something

Mitch:

and kind of bribe them to read my comment on the show.

Martin:

Yeah, and of course they do it voluntarily, it's up to them.

Martin:

But they like it because it's adding content.

Martin:

And that's also the thing that you could make

Martin:

a clip of something, maybe why you should listen to that episode.

Martin:

You could give a teaser and you could do fun things like funny somebody is saying and I

Martin:

like that clip feature that you're doing.

Martin:

I've done it mainly, I think, on the web in a

Martin:

browser.

Martin:

But it was very easy to pick a time and then

Martin:

do a clip, how long it should be, and then you could save it and then you could distribute it

Martin:

like tweeted it and that's probably that.

Martin:

You have to come back and talk a bit more

Martin:

about the whole thing because this could be gamification, it could be how many clips of an

Martin:

episode, popular clips and so on.

Martin:

But what I was learning, I was listening to

Martin:

podcasts and did screenshots when I mentioned my boost grams and other things like that.

Martin:

I thought it was funny and interesting and then going back and making clip.

Martin:

But you did a comment there on Podcast Index Social, the Master Dawn thing that you could

Martin:

use if somebody's like Business Intelligence, what are they saying about Adam Carrie?

Martin:

Right, then you could search for his name in the transcript and find directly what's saying

Martin:

and then you can make a clip of that.

Mitch:

Right? So you're referring to the transcript feature,

Mitch:

which is another Podcasting 2.0 feature.

Mitch:

And it's kind of amazing to me that the

Mitch:

industry hasn't already had a defined standard for transcripts because they're so important

Mitch:

for accessibility.

Mitch:

Obviously, if you don't have transcripts, then

Mitch:

a significant part of your audience will not be able to hear your shows.

Martin:

I'm open not for interrupting, but I'm open for the free market to decide, but

Martin:

it's even demands from certain groups that they will enforce it in the future.

Martin:

If you don't have this accessibility thing right, then you could be in deep trouble.

Martin:

I want voluntarily exchanged and private companies.

Martin:

Decide what to do and serve a customer.

Martin:

But I had one listen saying do you have a

Martin:

transcript? And I said yeah, I could get transcript but

Martin:

it's also who's paying.

Martin:

Sure, you could do it manually and if you have

Martin:

a show now we have talking and it was great conversations.

Martin:

We definitely have to come back, Mitch.

Martin:

But if you take $2 per minute manually, then

Martin:

it's like $120, right? Sure.

Martin:

You cover that as a podcaster.

Mitch:

Yeah, and I don't know what the cost is.

Mitch:

So you're speaking about well, if somebody manually does it yeah, I take that as an

Mitch:

example.

Martin:

But now with Chat PD, what is called and as I said, I heard from Pod News that

Martin:

Slack has started with it somehow for some reason.

Martin:

So if you put a podcast episode in Slack, it will automatically generate it interesting.

Martin:

And I have it in all the two the service that I also pay for editing and post production and

Martin:

so on.

Martin:

It's a good service, but simple in a way so

Martin:

that's included also for a certain amount of hours and so on.

Martin:

So it's getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper.

Martin:

But again, it's this competition that has to come to play.

Martin:

That's what I'm saying.

Martin:

I like to have transcript, but then I have now

Martin:

I'm babbling here.

Martin:

You want also like todd cocker and saying

Martin:

having your own domain and your own hub.

Martin:

If you're giving out everything like

Martin:

transcript, why should they listen to the podcast?

Martin:

But mainly it could be that it's add on and you want to see now we're here on the live

Martin:

stream.

Martin:

We could do a caption at the same time.

Martin:

I'm not doing it this time.

Martin:

But then people even don't have to listen to

Martin:

our voices, they could read it.

Martin:

It's funny, but many people are before they

Martin:

start watching a video and so on, they see the caption.

Martin:

So it could be used for many reasons.

Martin:

So please give your reasons and also what

Martin:

you're thinking in order to get this going.

Mitch:

Well, one of the main is obvious for accessibility.

Mitch:

So people with deaf people can like hearing hear the podcast but it also is just

Mitch:

advantages you touched on that you can search through the transcript to find what moments

Mitch:

something was said.

Mitch:

So let's say you're super into bitcoin and you

Mitch:

want to find out when was bitcoin talked about in this podcast.

Mitch:

You just go to the transcript.

Mitch:

We have this implemented in podverse.

Mitch:

You just open the transcript and type in the word bitcoin and it'll show you every

Mitch:

timestamp where it was mentioned.

Mitch:

It's really handy when you need it.

Mitch:

Like if you're listening to a two hour plus podcast and there was a moment but you were

Mitch:

out at the grocery store, you didn't have time to make a clip or make a note of it.

Mitch:

You just search for the keywords and you find it right away.

Mitch:

It's super handy I don't know how affordable it is for podcasters.

Mitch:

I believe Buzz Sprout is one that by default they generate AI transcripts.

Mitch:

If it comes in standard from RSS host, that's awesome.

Mitch:

Then the podcaster doesn't have to really think about it, just upload your MP3 and it's

Mitch:

included in your monthly whatever you pay per month to the service.

Mitch:

Where is it going? It's hard to say of all the podcasting 2.0

Mitch:

namespaces because of the reasons you mentioned about how there are countries where

Mitch:

there are regulations that would seem to say if you're a giant corporation you should make

Mitch:

your content accessible.

Mitch:

It seems like one that could be adopted

Mitch:

potentially by a major app.

Mitch:

I'm not going to hold my breath on that.

Mitch:

But I would think a company like Apple with their distributing podcast content all across

Mitch:

the world, I would think they would be interested in transcripts.

Martin:

For example, like James Credlin and Sam said, they discussed that Pod News review

Martin:

but when you search for or it was maybe yeah, it was New Media Show with Todd and Rob.

Martin:

They talked about James Creedland had written like a report on that how the potential of the

Martin:

search in Apple because they searched the title and search some other things but not

Martin:

many other tags and so on.

Martin:

So it's hard to find.

Martin:

And the Google who is good at search, you find it on the web but that's for the so called

Martin:

reasons because you'll enter there.

Martin:

How should they have played with the RSS so

Martin:

you get into their system, so to speak.

Mitch:

Sure, I hadn't really so that's what.

Martin:

I like with your Pod app, for example, that it's easy to use it and then you

Martin:

could swipe and say now I want to see the transcript, now I want to see the show notes

Martin:

and so on.

Martin:

So please continue.

Mitch:

Oh well, I hadn't even quite thought of it that Apple or Google with the power of like

Mitch:

advanced search engines can use the transcripts to help you search in advanced

Mitch:

ways for any podcast that gives you all the speech in a text format that then becomes

Mitch:

something they can index and you can search on.

Martin:

So there's another we'll see one service called what's this called?

Martin:

Ivy dot FM I think yeah, I.

Mitch:

Met I met I want to say his name is Mike but I can't remember.

Mitch:

But I met him at podcasting, podcast movement in Dallas.

Martin:

Yeah. So so that could be something searchability and so on.

Martin:

So and that's again coming and wrapping up in a way but as a listener but also fellow

Martin:

podcaster starting listening when other podcasting commenting on things development

Martin:

and then you have heard it some other place or found something, then you could give like a

Martin:

feedback loop or a comment and that's adding to the conversation again.

Martin:

So I will send a tweet and maybe do a clip on this new Media show about Ivy and then put

Martin:

them into the loop and see what's going on.

Martin:

And that's thanks to what I'm listening to

Martin:

with them also.

Martin:

But then it's good to get reminded about

Martin:

because it's very easy and I bet I understand that's the challenge.

Martin:

If you're used to like big players, for example, listen to music and if that app also

Martin:

could have podcasts, then it's very easy to use that kind of app, right?

Martin:

That's why you should go to new podcastapps.com or search for that hashtag on

Martin:

Twitter.

Martin:

I'm trying to doing a thing about that when

Martin:

it's very active.

Mitch:

And you're one of our biggest promoters for Podcasting 2.0, so maybe you should.

Martin:

Start with I know that you are.

Martin:

Do you want to talk a bit more about podverse?

Martin:

You are a small unit or team here.

Martin:

When is the merchandise coming, the nice blue

Martin:

headphone?

Mitch:

I don't know.

Mitch:

Well, we operate on an open source budget

Mitch:

here.

Mitch:

We have no investors, all of our expenses come

Mitch:

out of pocket.

Mitch:

We do have a premium feature, all of the

Mitch:

software is freely available, anything, anybody can download all the software we have

Mitch:

and deploy it and do anything they want with it.

Mitch:

But we do charge for a premium membership which gives you access to our server side

Mitch:

features like syncing across all of your devices.

Mitch:

In order to use syncing, that requires us to have a server running that you can post

Mitch:

information to and there's costs associated with having a server running.

Mitch:

That said, we also operate on the value for value model.

Mitch:

So if $18 per year is too much, we'll give you a free membership.

Mitch:

You just have to email us and tell us what email address you want a free membership with.

Mitch:

That's kind of doing like a middle ground here.

Mitch:

We don't make it like so you just sign up.

Mitch:

We do give you a three month free trial.

Martin:

That's what I tested and then I got reminded of it.

Martin:

Now it's starting expiring, should I do that? And of course I wanted to support it.

Martin:

And then now when you're here you could then explain what's the added value and the

Martin:

features and so on.

Martin:

And now we have done that in a way.

Martin:

So maybe you want to explain a little bit more about that, what's maybe coming in the future?

Mitch:

Sure, in the near term.

Mitch:

Well, we're focused on live stream in

Mitch:

particular because there's some exciting growth happening here with new players, new

Mitch:

apps, new RSS hosts, and new podcasters jumping on board.

Mitch:

So we want to make sure that we provide the best possible live stream experience.

Mitch:

That said, we do far more than live streams.

Mitch:

We have traditional podcasts listening too and

Mitch:

we hope that it were as good as any app you can get for that purpose.

Mitch:

Live streams in particular.

Mitch:

Another feature I hope to get done before the

Mitch:

spring is Android Auto.

Mitch:

We added Apple CarPlay about a month ago and

Mitch:

that was one of our most requested features.

Mitch:

We have like five times more Apple users than

Mitch:

Android, for some reason.

Mitch:

Not entirely sure why.

Mitch:

So Android Auto is next on the list.

Mitch:

That's one of the other major features we want

Mitch:

to add besides that.

Mitch:

To be honest, I'm kind of in like a regrouping

Mitch:

phase.

Mitch:

We got so much stuff done in 2022.

Mitch:

We had over 50 releases for mobile, so, like a release per week on mobile that includes

Mitch:

either bug fixes or new features.

Mitch:

And we're pretty happy with the new stability

Mitch:

and there's better performance.

Mitch:

It just seems like a more complete app than it

Mitch:

did.

Mitch:

Much more complete than it was in the

Mitch:

beginning of 2022.

Mitch:

And at this point, I'm I'm actually like

Mitch:

scratching my head, like, thinking, like, where do we go next?

Mitch:

What's our what's our big move next? Android Auto is a big one because podcast

Mitch:

listening happens so frequently in cars that we definitely want that in.

Mitch:

There's other stuff, like, we have F Droid, which is a free and open source app store.

Mitch:

So Google is in charge of Google Play.

Mitch:

Then there's an alternative store that's

Mitch:

available on Android called Fjord, and they require all of your software to be open

Mitch:

source, and they don't allow you to use things like Google Services.

Mitch:

They don't allow you to use the big tech stuff.

Mitch:

Okay, so we don't have notifications supported on Fjord yet because on iOS and Google Play,

Mitch:

we use something called Google Firebase to send those notifications.

Mitch:

So all that to say, we actually get a lot of engagement from Android users because people

Mitch:

in that community really care about really care about this stuff.

Mitch:

And there aren't that many options available for them, but they don't get notifications

Mitch:

currently.

Mitch:

So that's another feature I'd like to add.

Mitch:

I don't know how soon that will be, though.

Mitch:

And then another one that I talked about on

Mitch:

Podcasting 2.0 is Cross App Comments, which is we want to provide the ability for podcasters

Mitch:

to have one comment thread that is available in every app.

Mitch:

So from any app, you're able to send a reply to that podcast in a thread.

Mitch:

And we have the ability to do it.

Mitch:

We can do it with Activity Pub, or Macedon as

Mitch:

it's more commonly known.

Mitch:

And it's achievable and the surge of attention

Mitch:

that Macedon has gotten in just the past few months, going from this obscure thing for

Mitch:

computer nerds to all.

Martin:

Of a sudden, you know, stay alone for that.

Mitch:

Yeah, all of a sudden it's like, relevant, whether people like it or hate it,

Mitch:

whatever.

Mitch:

By the summer, I'm hoping that we have an

Mitch:

implementation given.

Mitch:

We can decide if it turns out to be easy.

Mitch:

Maybe it takes a weekend or two.

Mitch:

We work fast, but this is territory that isn't

Mitch:

implemented in any other podcast app yet.

Martin:

Yeah. And for me, as a long time blogger since 2002, I thought in order to be a

Martin:

cordial blog, it should have the timeline, the latest post up and then you have a unique

Martin:

perma link that's created automatically and then possibility with comments I think.

Martin:

But nowadays it's not so common anymore because for spam or that people are on other

Martin:

places and so on so I would be very happy to see that again but you could really add your

Martin:

two cent and then maybe somehow pay micro donation or SATS in order to do that.

Martin:

So you will get rid of the spammers or patrols and what what not so, but it is lots of things

Martin:

to to grab and to get around in order to work on everything.

Mitch:

Right?

Martin:

That would be very interesting to see if that's searchable or you could go back and

Martin:

see what was that comment, Fred? And then you could go to Mastodonofadiverse or

Martin:

podcast index social or whatnot and even maybe a search.

Martin:

I saw the latest was that Medium was going into the mastodon also but then they are more

Martin:

short form and then relating to their platform.

Martin:

So it's very interesting how this could play out.

Martin:

Thanks again for your time Mitch and we'll do a wrap up here and also this ask thing and

Martin:

value for value and I will ask you a guest to do that but as an end now I understand your

Martin:

why, but do you want to end? Why are you doing this, Mitch?

Mitch:

Sure. Well, I'm passionate about independent media and open source software and

Mitch:

it doesn't seem like if we don't do it, I don't know who will.

Mitch:

There are a lot of passionate people who work on independent projects to keep big tech from

Mitch:

controlling everything.

Mitch:

It's bugged me for past 20 years how we'll see

Mitch:

a great technological innovation and then within a few years it just seems to get

Mitch:

consumed by one or two companies and they get just this disproportionate control and that

Mitch:

doesn't have to happen with podcasting.

Mitch:

It's kind of open in its nature.

Mitch:

So that's a big reason why I'm so passionate about this is I want to do my part to make

Mitch:

sure that it stays this open and accessible media format, that it's affordable and that it

Mitch:

can do all of the cool things that you can get from a centralized big tech sort of platform.

Mitch:

That's what motivates me.

Martin:

That's great to hear.

Martin:

And also you have done lots of good, unique

Martin:

selling points or position or preparation or how you call it.

Martin:

But it's a bit of a rabbit hole in a way, when you start playing around with new apps.

Martin:

And it's fun to test different ones for different reasons and different use cases, and

Martin:

you're developing over time.

Martin:

But what would you say is like why should

Martin:

listeners out there listen and use podverse?

Mitch:

Well, it's hopefully the best podcast app listening experience you can have.

Mitch:

I think the main selling point for a casual listener is the ability to sync across all of

Mitch:

your devices that you can listen on your phone, you can drive to the office, you get

Mitch:

into your workstation and you can pick up where you left off on the website and you can

Mitch:

go back and forth.

Mitch:

In that way you can share clips easily, you

Mitch:

can get notifications for when new episodes are available and also if you get further down

Mitch:

the rabbit hole, start sending boostograms to and start interacting and supporting the

Mitch:

content creator directly.

Mitch:

If you get on board with the Value for value

Mitch:

feature and you give it a try like now that I'm used to using it, it's a lot of fun.

Mitch:

I can send messages with money attached to the creators I want to support.

Mitch:

I hear them reply to me because they most for the most part they'll they'll respond to you

Mitch:

when you send a message.

Mitch:

And also I stream money.

Mitch:

I send about two cent current rates per per minute right now.

Mitch:

And you know, it it's actually a good feeling to see like I'm listening to the show but I'm

Mitch:

also it's like an active thing that is happening.

Mitch:

I can see every minute it sends another two cent to the creator and there aren't that many

Mitch:

platforms that allow you to do that.

Mitch:

We have a lot of exciting features so podverse

Mitch:

should do everything that you would hope it would do and a lot more than that too because

Mitch:

we're adopting all these cutting edge features.

Martin:

Yeah and you definitely have come back and we talk more about that mindset like

Martin:

James Credlin said, maybe doesn't sound much but even if you have not maybe a very big

Martin:

audience.

Martin:

This is a small podcast but people are taking

Martin:

this active choice.

Martin:

It adding up both as a boost, really positive

Martin:

boost that somebody's listening and comment and I'm all for lurking and people could say

Martin:

it in private and so on, but doing that but also streaming and saying if you have like

Martin:

Apple Service Music or whatever, or another service that you pay every month if you say,

Martin:

oh, I have this budget for podcasters and stream certain amount and you could change it

Martin:

up and down and whatnot, but it is this mindset and starting doing that, but it needs

Martin:

some education, entertainment, engagement and getting there.

Martin:

But I really see that and it's also real money.

Martin:

It's bits of a bitcoin sure.

Martin:

So it's adding up.

Martin:

I mean it's really fascinating about that.

Martin:

So we definitely have to come back and talk

Martin:

more about that.

Martin:

Maybe digging into the mental thing about it

Martin:

and the mindset and what we could do.

Martin:

So again call to action is download and test a

Martin:

new podcast app like podverse FM I think definitely do that and spread the good word.

Martin:

Make a clip, make a fun clip of what we are talking about.

Martin:

Send a boost to Gram streaming sets, get the notification when I'm getting live in

Martin:

different and thanks again for bouncing back and forth and maybe with Harry in the future

Martin:

could implement something or some other things.

Martin:

So that's good.

Martin:

So with that said, if you have any ending

Martin:

notes or you could make the ask for me if you want.

Mitch:

No, I would just say, as you already mentioned, podverse FM, if you're interested,

Mitch:

that's the website available on iOS, Android and FID and yeah, please give us a try.

Mitch:

And we're very responsive.

Mitch:

If you want to reach us on Twitter or Macedon

Mitch:

or by email to contact at podverse FM, we're happy to reply.

Mitch:

We try to answer within one or two business days.

Martin:

Great.

Martin:

So, again, thanks for your time, Mitch, and

Martin:

thanks for you out there.

Martin:

I'm waving live to YouTube, Facebook,

Martin:

LinkedIn, and also people downloading and listening or streaming.

Martin:

So, again, go to new podcastapp.com and download a new podcast app like podverse.

Martin:

So thanks again, Mitch.

Mitch:

Thanks, Martin.

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Tea Party Media
The Journey of a New Media Advisor
Are You ready for a Tea Party gathering with a New Media Advisor? TeaParty.Media is an umbrella organization for Martin Lindeskog's networking and social media activities.

I am answering your questions on business philosophy, new media, and the good life (including tea).
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Martin Lindeskog

Creator, ✍🏻 Tea Book Sketches. Indie Biz Philosopher ⚛️ & New Media 📲 Advisor, TeaParty.Media. Blogger since 2002 and podcaster🎙since 2006. First podcast: EGO NetCast. Latest podcast: High Five for Hemp. Support 💲My Work and 🗽 Freedom of Expression: https://bio.link/lyceum